On the question of Peggy's salary, I take Joan's statements on her own to offer a frame of reference. When told that the Jaguar account was worth $50,000, she said "that's more than four times what I make in a year." So that means Joan makes no more than $12,500 a year, and I'd bet that Peggy makes either a comparable or lesser salary because even though she's part of creative, Joan has a managerial position. So 18,000 would be about a 33% pay increase- yowza.
... Remember the scene in the bar. Don gave her many compliments, and not one touched her personality or her competence. I wrote a post in my blog arguing that Joan has nothing but contempt for Don.
just read your post (and here it is for anyone else who would like to check it out!) i picked up on similar things during that conversation. she was half talking about herself, half talking about don. not sure if it’s contempt, but she definitely knows exactly the person she is. maybe even as much as peggy?
Yeah me again. Joey was right when he said Joan dresses like a whore. Joan spent all her time at the first agency banging the boss for "gifts" and saying she'd leave when she found a man to marry. Of course she was passed over for Harry's assistant (And whatever happened to that? I have a better idea of what Cooper does than what Harry does.): she'd always made it very clear she doesn't want to be thought of as a career girl. All of which is fine but don't get made if yr not taken seriously.
definitely in the beginning! i feel personally that joan’s view of being a career girl might have changed inside somewhat after harry had her read for those scripts and she actually enjoyed it then he ditched her for that guy, and then she completely disliked when she quit and wound up working at a store. girl can work and the agency would fall apart without her. she’s sort of accidentally become what she didn’t think she would, and the yin yang thing with her and peggy was in the slight generation gap. she did what she did to be known and peggy had the balls to do something different.
... Don's yell at Megan could have been given to everyone. "Just do whatever you want!" The Joan story line was really forced, though, and I don't believe that would have happened, and I don't think that that's more than 10% wishful thinking.
I don't think that Pete felt he was asking Joan to do anything more self-crapping than the s**t he does all day. ~ Joan's reaction to Don -- I think she was making the best of a bad situation, and she was happy to hear that Pete wasn't honest about how the "partners meeting" really went down. ~ Tim Goodman made a great point that I missed: this ep (and the series) is all about Don. This ep was about Don losing power, with Megan, with Peggy, with his agency, with his creativity, with his selling.
let’s hope it’s the thing to get him back on track!
many reviews call roger's vote reaction unbelieveable but i think reasons beyond what he said would've raised eyebrows. anything possibly personal could lead those disgusting men think even less of her "if she slept with roger, what's the hold up? why are we even negotiating?" (i can hear pete saying this), both now & in their future. not excusing roger at all, that's just my read on him in that scene, i do wish he had talked to her privately though, even if the outcome was the same.
How much was Peggy making before, does anyone know, and what was her title? I'm proud of her for moving up to somewhere where she will truly be appreciated, but I was wondering how better that offer really is from where she was.
maybe someone knows the exact answer to this but if she wrote down 18k, i’m willing to bet it was a hell of a lot less than that. i dunno why but the number 11 is coming to mind. i did just wake up though. this offer is far better than she was ever going to get at SCDP, that much i know. i even imagined ginsberg being promoted before her there.
For people who don't want the text posts: step 1 - get tumblr savior, step 2, blacklist 'Ask madmendaily a question'. Done. Also, if you tagged your posts with episode names or especially numbers (e.g. #5x04 or something), then people could just blacklist all the episodes in a season and unlist them once they've watched and are ready to see posts. (But I don't understand why you'd follow a blog for a current show if you're not keeping current with episodes and expect everyone else to wait lol)
"If a Mad Men episode has been shown on American TV and I haven’t watched it, responsibility for staying spoiler-free is on me, not on any discussion-group moderator. The Internet is going to have spoilers where you don’t expect them."
I don't feel bad that Joan did what she did, it's her body and her life and I feel that she had good reasons to do it. It's the fact that she was even asked that makes me sick. After all her loyalty to the company in the end she was treated as a means to an end. She was objectified as a business strategy by people who should have had no say or opinion in what she should do with her body. The only actual good part that is that they were nice enough to pay her for it (she deserves more actually).
no, me either. all the praise to her for taking the best she could from a shitty situation.
I don't think Lane told Joan to take the partnership & the 5% because he loves her, if he loved her he would have stood up for her more. Standing up for her & ultimately trying to convince the partners would have stopped them from discovering what he did, they wouldn't have bothered to look for money to pay her with. However, it could be reasoned that he didn't stand up for her more because Pete manipulated the situation & said she seemed vaguely interested (which is why I think Roger didn't).
i feel so bad for lane sometimes, but most of the time i want to smack him over the head. he’s not a callous man in my opinion, he just keeps falling into the wrong kind of shit and then wades in it in jolly good ole british fashion. (such pride for my fellow countrymen i have…) but yeah, the feelings thing doesn’t fly. if he felt strongly he would have told her not to do it.
And whether Lane told her to go for a partnership because he cares about Joan or because that saved his ass from getting caught stealing is up for debate, but it would have been incredibly bad for him if they had to pay her all that money like Pete originally proposed.
shaking my head at you right now, lane pryce. shakin’ my head.
I'm just flabbergasted that anyone could see what Joan did as a calculated and devious career move. The scene where we discover that Don was too late and her obvious emotional state before that was truly upsetting. It was something she pretty much was forced into and essentially blackmailed that she wouldn't be a good mother if she didn't do it. I always thought Joan's looks if anything were the thing that kept her from getting ahead as she was never taken as seriously as Peggy.
yeah for sure, i loved how they backtracked. my heart broke when i saw her face both times, but the second time around after it was clear it had already been done, was shattering.
Wait, you think Pete was HONEST? He bent words to everyone and manipulated the situation until it came out the way he wanted. He told the partners that Joan was "interested" but just needed the right number when she all but told him to go fuck himself in the previous scene. And then he told her that all the partners were on board when they weren't. Pete was lying for the entire episode. At NO POINT was he being honest or anything other than knowingly manipulative.
i think he was honest with joan, the way he stated it sounded clear enough to me. he knew what he was asking her to do for the company and she seemed to know it too. and pete’s middle name is manipulative. one of them, at least. the other is little twerp.
Lane is in huge personal financial trouble with the Inland Revenue, (the British version of the IRS) and got a $50,000 line of credit from their bank to hide the $8,000 he needed to pay the bill. He took such a large amount so he could say there was this amount extra in the books so bonuses could be paid and he could get that $8,000. When Mohawk Airlines dropped their ads because of the strike, the partners didn't get their bonuses, so he embezzled the firm.
Lane from what I've gathered is facing some outstanding debts from England and needs a large amount of cash quickly. He was counting on the Christmas bonuses to pay that with but they decided not to give them out but before they did he forged Don's signature on a check from the office and is presumably going to use it to pay his debts with the company's money.
It's not just that he took bonus money intended for others, he extended the company's credit line and put the company dangerously in debt in order to do so. AND he told the partners that the bonus money was coming out of a surplus, when they are actually in the red.
Rizzo's comment about Ginsberg reciting a line from "Ozymandias" sort of struck me. I do love Ginsberg, but he is revealing himself to be quite the egotistical person. So there's that part of it, that relates to the poem, not respecting Don anymore because he feels he is better and someday Don will fall. But the writers could've chosen any poem,but they chose Ozymandias,about how all great things fall. Maybe Peggy leaving and Joan having to prostitute for an account is a sign of decay for SCDP
Lane owes the British Government money in back-taxes and he needed the money immediately, so he devised a plan to get SCDP to give the workers their Christmas bonuses early, and they did, but they only gave the workers money, not the execs, so he stole money from the company.
thank you! i figured it was something along those lines with the way he’s been acting.
can someone explain to me what laine is doing? i don't totally understand :x
i’m not sure either! not entirely. i keep having to ask the person i’ve been watching with because i’ve somehow been out of the room every time lane is involved in some kind of dodgy dealing finance wise. i hope he manages to do something good with it and not bad.
I think that previous anon was very unfair to Joan. I've been in offices too where women have used their looks & more to get further up the ladder but Joan has always worked hard before this & had the respect of the entire office. She was put in an impossible position & told (untruthfully) that all the partners agreed that she should do it. She was then blackmailed further by Lane, who told her to do it for the good of her child. It was a complicated & horrible situation that she was pushed into
yep pretty much. it all came down to it landing on her head on whether they’d get a chance with jaguar or not. to me at least. i mean pete was honest, as he often is (i love him, i know he’s a dick, i know but he’s still my favourite!), and said something along the lines of it not being a negotiable situation. and i think lane sort of mentioned the partnership idea cause if she was going to do it, better it to be for something that’ll mean she can look out for herself and kevin for as long as possible.
Am I the only one wondering about how Ken's going to react to Peggy leaving, what with there pact and all? He seems like such an innocent soul, I imagine he'll be a little hurt by it, even after Peggy already scoffed at him last episode (I love Peggy and don't blame her, but in my head I was still kind of like, "awww, poor Ken, trying to be nice and it's thrown in your face"). Oh Ken Cosgrove, he's such a puppy.
not at all! i thought about ken too, i really do think he’s the most — i’m not sure what word to use, relatable?? — of all the characters, and i do think he’s genuine with everything he says. oh, writers. i wonder if he’ll go with her to prove he meant what he said? that’d be so cute but then we’d have less ken too, and there’s already not enough!
The person who asked about Joan is an asshole. It's fairly clear that Joan didn't want to sleep with Herb but found herself forced to. Despite her talents, leadership skills, and intelligence, she'd never advance because the men around her see her as merely a sex object. If she used sex to get ahead, it's because she had little alternative. We saw what happened with Sal when he didn't want to sleep with Lee. Joan's not going to let that happen to her, especially with a kid.
Whoa, whoa. Look at the respect Joan has garnered from Don. I feel as though it's unfair to compare Joan to current working women. She is discrete and a professional who has been lauded for her work in the office. She used her skills AND her, uh, assets, to work her way up at a time where there was literally no other way to gain the respect she commands. Put it in context. She knew what she wanted, she knew how to get it, she got it with dignity (previously, obviously, without Jag dude).
I've always been on the fence about Joan, but after this episode it's quite clear that I really dislike her. I was furious when SCDP made her partner. Maybe I'm just bitter because I've worked in offices where women have used their god-given assets to move up while the rest of us actually worked hard to get ahead. I really felt bad for Peggy even though she had no clue this was going down. She's my favorite character, but I'm glad she's leaving. Too bad there's a Joan in every office.
i definitely understand where you’re coming from, i’ve been around that kind of woman too. i don’t know that i would personally class joan in the same category. the partnership thing seems odd though. as a whole right now though it seems like SCDP is just pete campbell, maybe joan will have some input beyond the likes of roger, bert and don.
I can't say I was terribly shocked by Don throwing money in peggy's face either. I wasn't surprised that it happened, but i felt like his reaction was extreme because all peggy wanted was some recognition. Don hasn't realized that he takes peggy for granted.
the way peggy reacted was in a way how i reacted, too. just this blink in the form of realisation that wow, he really should see her for who she is. he helped her out a little bit in the beginning but she’s done a lot for him too, this season she was completely overlooked for new “hotshot” creative.
Forget Megan. I'm tired of her as well. I think Don and Joan end up together or Don will be forever alone after this Megan fiasco boils over. His relationships mirror Rodger Sterlings'. Divorce number 2 coming up!
i was never really behind don and joan happening, but it’s weird, something sparked for me in the last episode. i think joan will be a single mother and i think that’ll actually be a good arc to explore for the next couple of seasons, but when she cupped his face and said “you’re one of the good ones” or something, you never know. i hope don is alone, just cause it seems like he hides behind his relationships when they make him a person he most wants to be. which i think is also why he can’t handle megan doing what she wants and he couldn’t handle betty having any control of herself whatsoever.
I don't see why people should hate Megan. I think she's been essential to showcase Don Draper getting his life back together. I'm glad he finally has some stability. Being with Megan has been a test for him, to remain loyal, start a new routine. Megan is a free spirit, hard-headed, and that has been a test of character for Don. She's untamable. The show can't be completely focused on Don Draper. This season has proven that all of the characters are beyond complex. Everyone has a story to tell.
to each their own is all i can say on the subject of megan and most characters on the show. we all love and dislike different ones, that’s the beauty of it! i personally have a tolerate/eh relationship with megan. i like that she stands up to don but i’m tired of her.
Was I the only one especially feeling bad for Peggy when Don threw the money at her? I couldn't imagine how shitty that would feel. She basically pulled off a Don-esque clutch pitch like how Don did it for Lucky Strike in the pilot episode. All in all, I'm glad for Peggy!
no! i had an odd feeling in my stomach when it happened. it’s weird because in this show, i’m personally so used to seeing the men treat the women as lesser i didn’t think i’d be affected much by anything, but it was such a kick in the teeth. i’m really hoping we’ll still get to see a lot of peggy (the sopranos had major characters that went in and out but still remained a big part, and to be honest we’ve seen more of megan than we have of every other female character in the entirety of season 5 so it might not make much of a difference) so am sad we might not, but at the same time, i’m proud as hell for her.
I don’t hate Megan. Like I said earlier though, I dislike the fact that her character has taken away from Peggy, Joan and Betty this season. I also don’t like that Don has turned into a person who up until an episode or two ago, didn’t care about his work. To be honest I’ve never been less interested in Don than I have been this season.